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Subscribe to RSSThe 1982 movie “Fast Times at Ridgemont High” introduced the world to surfer dude Jeff Spicoli and his laidback lingo. Every time Spicoli appears, he treats the audience to some aaawesomes and duudes.
For people outside of the state, it might seem as if Californians speak like surfer dudes or valley girls -- like, ohmigod. California girls and guys themselves, on the other hand, insist they have no accent at all. Who's right? As it turns out, linguistic researchers aren't even sure: Most existing large-scale linguistic research projects skip the nation's most populous state, as if no one spoke English west of the Mississippi.
“California is very new. Boston, New York, the Northeastern accents are really set in stone because the population has been speaking English [for a long time]. And in California, it is still in the making,” explains Penny Eckhert, a professor of linguistics at Stanford University. (Eckhert herself hails from New Jersey, but speaks without the telltale accent.)
Eckert and a team of researchers descended upon the non-costal towns of Redding and Merced in the Central Valley to interview residents and indentify California accents and dialect. After the researchers gathered interviews with as many residents as they can, they apply it to a speech corpus to analyze spoken language.
Californians may like to brag about having no accent, but Eckert says that isn’t true: “Everybody has an accent. An accent is just a way of pronouncing a language and people notice ones that tend to be associated with a particular place.” (Actually, you can watch Bill Hader, Kristen Wiig and Fred Armisen prove the existence of the California accent -- by mocking it -- in this "Saturday Night Live" sketch.)
She found that many Californians share common traits with people in the Midwest or the South, showing that Dust Bowl migration influenced dialect.
“A pattern that is well-known in the parts of the Midwest and Pennsylvania and Ohio is called the positive anymore, (such as) 'I shop there anymore,'” she says, explaining most people use anymore in a negative construction, such as “I don’t shop there anymore.”
“We found that all over California and did not expect it.”
She also learned that many Californians use a nasally "a," found often in the Midwest. Once when she was interviewing a student at a Palo Alto high school, he complained the school was too homogenous, noting there weren’t a lot of “blocks.” After a moment, she realized he said "blacks."
Some Californians share commonalities with Southerners, notably the switch between was and were. Many Southerners say, “We was at the store” instead of, “We were at the store," and Californians also sometimes swapped was and were. She also observed that Californians blended pen/pin, with speakers saying both words the same, much like people in the South.
“The diversity of California is something that does not get seen as a distance,” Eckert says.
In September, the team gathered data in Bakersfield. While a new location for fieldwork hasn’t been identified yet, Eckert plans on studying as many cities as possible.
You can learn more about the project at Stanford's Voices of California project page.
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Interesting....I grew up in California in the 1950s.....pretty much thought we had no accent. They better hurry up, though.....at the rate CA cities are going bankrupt and folks are fleeing to other locals (that's low-cals as in "locations"); there, OMG, like won't be anybody to interview in a few years....dude. Awwwwwsomeeeeeee
With the world going to hell in a basket, why do we give a damn about crap like this.!!!!!!!!!
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Isn't California where we also got Ebonics?
And still..."The land of fruits and nuts!"
I live in SoCal and can tell you I have never heard any of the linguistic quirks mentioned in the article from anyone around here. I think they will find that, due to the shear size of the state and the differences in where people in different regions of the state came from, there will be a diversity in the language usage and pronunciations found in different parts of the state.
Interesting. Lived in CA all of my life and have yet to hear anyone speak the way they mention in the article. If I heard "I shop there anymore" or "We was at the store", I would slap them in their face.
I didnt think I had one either until my irish girlfriend pointed it out. And I guess its hilarious to speak german with a CA accent to real germans. ;)
... and folks are fleeing to other locals (that's low-cals as in "locations");
Just so you'll know, that's "locales."
Everyone has an accent.
Lived here a long time and nary have I heard anyone make the pronunciations mentioned here. One person saying blocks instead of blacks or pin instead of pen does not a phenomenon make. All this study shows is that some people say things differently, probably because they or their family do in fact come from different areas. I fail to see how this translates into a "native" California accent.
By the way, you can go to any high school in the U.S. and hear kids speaking with a Valley or surfer dude accent. You can even hear elements of California surfer dude accents in places as far flung as Australia or South Africa. It may have had its roots here in the 70's and 80's and spread through pop culture and movies, but it's far from uniquely Californian.
Not me! I have no accent!
Some of these examples of "accents" are simply poor English.
"Hick" is not an accent, and neither is Ebonics.
First yer gotta differentiate between lousy grammar or spellin' and the way words are pronounced. The most obvious one is inflection where the last word in a sentence is sounded longer and at a higher pitch, almost turning it into a question.
Notice that Clint Eastwood does NOT do this with, "Go ahead, make my day!" Although he is a Californian, his parents were not.
I agree with those commenting that they never heard in California the language quirks noted in this article. I'm not orginally from California but I lived there seven years and never noticed anything like that. And I doubt that over time (as this article assumes) any regional California accent will ever develop there because most of the population has moved there since the age of television and radio and movies, which is causing accents to diminish more and more nationwide with each new generation, even in regions of the county known for their accents. Eventually, there's just going to be an American accent, period. My four neices and nephews have all been born and raised in the Carolinas and none of them have even the slightest Southern accent.
Are they saying that people living in a region might have a regional dialect?
Yo, bra. I was born and bread in So Cal dude. We toooooootally don't have an accent. In all seriousness, I don't hear an accent but the "pen/pin" makes sense. The kid that goes to school in Palo Alto that pronounces "blacks" as "blocks" must be mentally retarded. Nobody confuses those 2 words. Also, anyone that swaps "was" and "were" must be poorly educated. Now that I live in NY, I hear tons of accents. Still don't hear them when I visit my friends and family in CA.
These linguistics "experts" are pretty terrible at their jobs if they think there is a real accent in CA.
I was born and raised near Redding, California (one of the cities visited) and I've never heard any of the weird things they're referring to in this article. As an Army wife of 22 years I've traveled and lived for extended periods (years) in Kansas, Kentucky, Arizona, and Germany and now I call Tennessee home. I have been told by a few people that I have an accent but they usually can't place it. I will admit that my husband (also a native Cali guy) says dude a lot. Something I've noticed that was not included in their findings however, is that most the time in other places you don't hear people referring to a group of guys AND girls as "you guys" because the word "guys" usually implies male gender only.
Another Californian (northern) here that hasn't heard what the author of this article reports. I'm not saying we don't have an "accent" -- I'm sure people from other states notice differences. I do wonder eventually how speech will be affected by the influx of foreigners in areas such as Silicon Valley. My nephew's junior high class has students speaking 5 different native languages. There is already a blending of cultures via marriage, and kids with mixed backgrounds. Give it another generation, and that will be an interesting study!
Nope, I haven't heard those quirks locally, but as a foreigner living in California, I can tell you that Californians have an accent. Sure, it is milder than that of those living in New York, Boston, the South, the Mid-West etc.; but that does not mean that it is not an accent. As such, when we are in another State, I can tell Californians from their accent. Oh, and some Californians do have a really nasal accent.
Is "Indentify" even a word? Seeing as how my spellchecker catches it, I doubt it is.
What is it with major news outlets not being able to spellcheck? If it is a word, I would love if someone could tell me what it means, as Google could not find it either.
I'm a 61 year native Californian with no known accent.This study is flawed unless it has been ascertained where their subjects were born and how long have they resided in California.That nasal accent is due to the pollen and pollution that gives everybody sinus problems.A Chinese friend, who immigrated here, said Californians sound sing songy to her.
Not using "was" and "were" properly is not a dialect, it is bad grammar. I currently live quite near one of the cities where they conducted this study and have lived in California all my life, almost 60 years. "Blocks" with a nasal A? No, I have not heard this in common usage, although in a state this large there would likely be variants. As for the difference between pen and pin, my parents clarified that for me at an early age. Frankly, I would suggest the study be widened if they are seeking a more accurate finding.
I live in Ca. and it seems most people have a Hispanic accent.
Pollution or pollen may aggravate the nasal effect, but does not cause it. The nasal accent was much more obvious a couple of generations ago in the L.A. area. And the air was cleaner then. And in southern California, the majority do now have a Hispanic accent, something that the researchers probably chose to ignore.
We speaking like Southerners? No way dude!
Y'all better believe it.
"Hush Y'alls" is the hand-held sign seen at many PGA events in the South instead of "Quiet Please."
I still remember the first time I said 'credit cod' after living near Boston for five years. It's contagious!
Thank God someone finally put in black and white "everyone has an accent." Every single person on this earth has an accent. An accent does not depend upon where you are, or if everyone else speaks the same way. EVERYONE has an accent wherever they are and even if you can't pinpoint the difference between Southern and Californian. In general, it is an American accent. There is no such thing as "no accent".
Well of course there is no such thing as "no accent". Especially in North America since however you speak, it all must belong in a section of american dialects and accents instead of traditional english dialects and accents.
Thank you. I am from the south and know I have an accent but when I moved to Wisconsin there were a lot of folks that swore they didn't have an accent! Haha...So what is a beg? A bag to them. There's a whole site that tells how to speak Scansin. I have an ex. from California that moved down here and when we met, I knew right off he wasn't a local. The folks across the river in La. have an accent and New Orleans has it's own thing going on and it's nothing like ours. You are so right, Rachel. Everyone has an accent.
I've moved to Washington state and I can't get over the saying "baig" for "bag" thing. Everything with an "ag" has a long A. Bag, tag, dragon, wagging, flag is all baig, taig, dray-gon, etc.
Shaydie
How about the pronounced R that they put into the state's name - Warshington? Perhaps that's more dialect than accent?
I lived in Washington, US for 18 years. I never heard anything like that. Maybe a few people in eastern Washington speak like that. Same with #3.4, never heard that. There is no native Washington accent. I have none.
I'm originally from LA and when I go back to visit friends and family, I do hear a slight accent and no they're not from the Valley. I've been to almost all 50 states, have lived in a couple, but I think western WA is as free from an accent as any place I've been. I have met a handful of older gentleman originally from Eastern WA who call a roof a rough/ruff and that like to add a random r to words like Warshington, but east of the Cascades is a whole different state.
Oh and that weird way of pronouncing words like bag, I've only have heard from people who are from MI or WI, so are you sure they're natives or maybe that's how their parents taught them...we have a lot of MI and WI transplants.
Polka14:
Honestly, we had that conversation a long time ago. There is no such thing as no accent.
Thank you. That is where I had lived.
Even in places with no accents like western WA?
I live in Everett, WA just north of Seattle. Everywhere I go within this region (even Seattle) the cashiers ask me what kind of baig I want. Long A. I've never been to Eastern Washington. It *is* the only accent I've detected up here, though.
One of my friends was born and raised in Lynnwood and she does this constantly. "Look at that cute dog Way-ging his tail!" I was at the doctor's office last week and someone walked by, "Cute baig!"
From the article: “Everybody has an accent. An accent is just a way of pronouncing a language and people notice ones that tend to be associated with a particular place.”
You don't understand what an accent is if you continue to claim you don't have one. Are you mute Polka? If you speak you have an accent.
Why do you have a problem with having an accent?
They don't do that in SW Washington to my knowledge anyway. I only traveled as far north as Seattle once and that was long ago so I don't know if they have accents. Perhaps I should travel there someday.
I think there should be a difference known between a classical definition of "accent" and a technical definition. If speaking itself is an accent then it really is meaningless. If "accent" is the idea of speaking a language in a different or unusual way, especially based on region then I have none. I speak the foreign language of English in a more neutral way where anyone can understand me.
I think there should be a difference known between a classical definition of "accent" and a technical definition. If speaking itself is an accent then it really is meaningless.
I have seen you use technical definitions to prove your own points on other seeds. You don't get to ignore the definition of a word just because you don't like it. What you think does not change the definition.
If "accent" is the idea of speaking a language in a different or unusual way, especially based on region then I have none.
Except that isn't what an accent is. An accent is... "1. the characteristic mode of pronunciation of a person or group, esp one that betrays social or geographical origin."
Please note, person is in the definition.
We can look at it another way if it makes you feel better about it. If English is British... Your 'English is a foreign language' idea would be a good example of your adherence to technical definitions by the way.
Anyway, so do you speak the 'foreign' language of English like a British person? Unless you do so then you have an American accent.
If "accent" is the idea of speaking a language in a different or unusual way, especially based on region then I have none. I speak the foreign language of English in a more neutral way where anyone can understand me.
Again, there isn't really a neutral way. You are speaking it differently than someone else. You don't speak with a southern drawl. You don't do the long 'A' like many do in the Northeast. At least, that is if I remember right from the other conversation. That does narrow you down to a region.
I remember even giving you links to charts, audio clips, and other information. At this point this is just sheer stubbornness on your part.
You still haven't really answered the question though. Why does the idea of having an accent seem to bother you so much?
Americans are not meant to have accents except Americans from overseas. We are the same people. To have accents is betraying the notion of one nation in a way. To speak in a neutral manner is the best. My voice can't betray what part of this republic I was born in. I could have come from anywhere.
American accents don't exist. It is obviously regional at most or on the individual level as distasteful as that may sound.
Welcome to the Vine. I am Polka14 and yes, I am stubborn.
Polka,
There are some kinds of stubborn that aren't necessarily good.
Americans are not meant to have accents except Americans from overseas. We are the same people. To have accents is betraying the notion of one nation in a way. To speak in a neutral manner is the best. My voice can't betray what part of this republic I was born in. I could have come from anywhere.
That makes no sense coming from you. You object to having one national language, accents can't be more divisive than multiple tongues.
So much for celebrating differences. I don't think you have thought this through the whole way. What else should we all do to make us one nation?
American accents don't exist. It is obviously regional at most or on the individual level as distasteful as that may sound.
So which is it? American accents don't exist; or they are regional or individual? The point is that there are regional accents; trying to identify the characteristics of one is what the article is about.
Since there is no "non-accent" everyone has to have one of some type. That should not be distasteful.
American accents don't exist period. They may be on the case of individuals but not from the collective. Not in the US. Case studies in west coast primarily where accents don't exist except from non-English speakers or foreigners specifically.
Polka:
By definition there is NO such thing as no accent. It really is a simple concept.
You contradicted yourself again too.
American accents don't exist period. They may be on the case of individuals but not from the collective.
If they don't exist... then individuals can't have them.
At this point, you are being ridiculous. At any rate, sheer stubborn willful ignorance can't be corrected, no matter what facts really are. If calling yourself accent-less makes you feel better about yourself, go for it. Be someone who ignores any information they dislike.
If Individuals can have "accents" then it is merely the individual's way of speaking. There is nothing like an "American accent" revealing anything about the identity and origin of a speaker. An individual way of speaking may be fully separated from national identity. Like me for example. Listen to me and know that I can come from anywhere. You can't say with certainty.
If Individuals can have "accents" then it is merely the individual's way of speaking.
Yes, people can have their own accent, that is what their way of speaking is called. However you like to ignore that there are accents that can reveal information about the identity of the speaker.
I could say you are not from the South if you don't drawl out some words. I can say you are not from the Northeast if you say car as car and not as cah. I can say you didn't grow up around my my Dad's neighborhood if you say Pittsburgh instead of Picksburgh. I can say you're not from the area in LA my nieces are from if you don't have a Mexican-Spanish hint to your words. I can say you're not from New Orleans or some other areas in Louisiana if you don't talk like a Cajun. I can say you're not from New York City if you say coffee instead of pronouncing it cawfee. Your 'neutral' English would point to you being from the Midwest to West coast.
Those are examples of area accents.
As for American Accent... if I can listen to you and point you out as American then that is an American accent, the English language is spoken in more that one country. The same way that Mexican Spanish is not the same as Spanish Spanish, or Ecuadorian Spanish. (I know from experience that Ecuador is different, we had an exchange student from there go to my high school)
The idea of accent is also not invalidated just because it isn't a 100% way of identification. People move, socialize, watch movies or films. All of which affect speech. Especially in the current world of interconnectedness. People can also train themselves out of an accent.
When I was in elementary school I had people ask me if I was British, it was because I had speech therapy for a lisp and was very careful to enunciate everything clearly. The point there being people did recognize it as a different manner of speaking.
Even if you personally are one of those people who can't hear the difference it still doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you were deaf would you claim sound isn't real since you couldn't hear it?
For something that doesn't exist a lot of people have made studies of it, and there is certainly a lot of information about it.
http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/newyorkcity/
http://aschmann.net/AmEng/
http://www.evolpub.com/Americandialects/AmDialMap.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_American
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6883700
http://grammar.about.com/od/rs/g/Regional-Dialect.htm
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/NationalMap/NationalMap.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_English_regional_phonology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accent_%28linguistics%29
Here are some examples from popular TV shows.
If you want to try and see if you can hear some accents try watching some clips from "Swamp People" many of the people shown have fairly strong accents.
http://www.history.com/shows/swamp-people/videos#swamp-training-with-troy
http://www.history.com/shows/swamp-people/videos/land-management#land-management
I know from seeing her on commercials that Snooki has an accent...
http://www.tvfanatic.com/videos/jersey-shore-season-2-full-trailer
I can't think of anyone else off the top of my head right now, we don't usually watch much television.
You could argue it is a dialect rather than an accent.
I don't think so. A dialect is more of using different words than different sounds.
I've never thought of us actually having an accent, but in CA we do have our own dialect/lingo. (Dude does work for any and all situations). A lot of the study's examples supported more dialect support than an actual accent. The only "accent" she was able to bring up was how Central CA says A.
We have an accent that is a for most of us that are born and raised in California and bland accent. We don't mis-used words as a whole (that would be more from a family or nieghborhood influence I think), we don't drawl our letters, but we here in S. Cal definitely use "Dude" a lot, even my little son. We have our favorite words like: "Killer", righteous, Awesome, way, etc... Other than that, pretty plain from my point of view.
There is also the CA anomaly where every sentence even statements rise up in tone at the end sounding like the speaker is asking a question.
Californians (on the coast) don't really have an accent. They sound like singers from any foreign land-especially England- sound when singing a song in English (no quirky accent sounds). Do your research in Bakersfield and you may as well be doing it in Oklahoma or Arkansas.
I have lived in LA for 7 years and it took me 4 to get rid of my Wisconsin accent, but now my parents are pointing out to me that I've gained a Cali accent.
I lived in Wisconsin for five years. I moved from the deep south and my guy is from Stoughton. Yes, Wisconsin folks definitely have an accent. When we moved down south everyone thought I had some kind of hybrid accent and boy they knew he wasn't from here. But I sure loved those folks up there and love to go back twice a year. :)
All I can say is "Your just lucky"
I'm from Cali and when I met my cousin's southern boyfriend from Arkansas I thought his accent was Australian. Being from the central valley, I don't detect a lot of differences in Iowa (and people tell me here that I don't have much of an "accent") - that is until I met some Central-Southern rural Iowans who had such a drawl I had trouble understanding them.
You know, there's something right there -- "Cali." I don't know where in California Emily and Mr. Young are/were from, but I NEVER hear the term Cali used here. It's like calling San Francisco "Frisco." Doesn't happen here.
Amy - I didn't start using "Cali" until I moved to Iowa and really only in writing. It's just faster.
Cali; sounds like some foreigner's attempt at being trendy.
Nicolas Cage / Belinda Carlisle / Alexandra Stevenson (tennis player) / Clint Eastwood / [etc.]
... People who are born and grow up in California [plus a few well-assimilated transplants] have a very distinctive California accent, such as saying nieu instead of no.
The California Accent has elements of a combo gay-lisp and uppity-movie-star element to it, though this description isn't meant to be taken in a negative sense.
(Honorable mention goes to Jim Backus, who was a good example of 'talking with a Californian accent' even though not from there.)
"The California Accent has elements of a combo gay-lisp and uppity-movie-star element to it, though this description isn't meant to be taken in a negative sense."
Sure, after all how can maligning and falsely misrepresenting the population of an entire state to be both gay and uppity POSSIBLY be taken in a negative sense?
I'm not a professional linguist, yet I detect a strong accent in what you've written and the way you think. It sounds like what's coming out of your mouth is actually coming completely out of your ass.
Since the average Californian is an illegal from Mexico they should.
Actually, there is a strong "Spanglish" element within California-speak in general, not to mention that a lot more there Gringos speak basic Spanish (especially in Southern CA) than in other parts of the country.
California was discovered by Spaniards travelling up from Mexico. Initially, California was home to various Indian tribes and they in turn origianlly immigrated from Asia thousands of years ago. Ain't education wonderful?
Ummm, "blocks", pen/pin, positive anymore?! Where the hell in California was this person? In the 30 years I lived there I never heard any of these.
I was thinking the same thing. I have been here 25 years and never heard any of that
I notice that people from California pronounce Don (the man's name) and Dawn (the woman's name) with the same vowel sound. I grew up in the Midwest (Michigan) and this seems very strange to me.
Same here. I'm 50 years old and a native Californian and I've never heard anyone say, "I shop there anymore."
That could also be the traditional illiteral reporter sydrome at nbc. Or CA public school. I've never heard it either. Same for was/were. That's just bad schools.
MKW - I thought that's how you were supposed to pronounce them :/
"I shop there anymore."
A couple people above are confused. The article says that the positive anymore is used "in the parts of the Midwest and Pennsylvania and Ohio" NOT in California.
Emily, same here :)
MKW, how do you pronounce them?
MKW - not in the LA area. Now I pronounce Dawn more like Don and not a single Californian has understood what I mean. I always have to spell it and then they say, 'Oh Daawwwn'...
Oh, I shop there anymore; there's enough blocks there to satisfy my eugenic interests!
.
Yeah, but people on the news speak like us in California so... We win!- They just need to work in "hella" more often.
You just won the ignoramus award!
The "no accent" is also known as a "news accent" therefore everybody compares to that.
@ peanutGalleryTheater - But people who try to say that newscasters don't have an accent can have it pointed out to them that newscasters talk like their NOSE IS PLUGGED!
That "news accent" has a name -- General American accent.
I've also heard it called "accent neutral."
Don't axe me no questions.
Why?
Not sure about the "block" and "black" sounding the same, but I know I say pen and pin the same and I use to was instead of were a lot. Still, I think California's accent is hard to define, as it's different everywhere. But when I hear someone talk, I know they are from California. It took moving to Minnesota to hear our accent. But there are basically 3 different accents in California, the southern accent that is shared in rural areas and black communities, the Spanlish accent that is in Latino communities and the "Valley" accent that is in suburban areas.
And Minnesotans, parochial rubes that they be, sometimes continue to assert that they themselves have no accent.
There's a bit more to it than that. Black communities have their own accent and dialect that are pretty much the same wherever you go in the state. The Northern CA accent is what everyone thinks of as the non-accent. Southern CA is pretty much the same as Nor-Cal, but with just a hint of the valley-girl accent in its lilt.
Then you have what I call the teenage accents and dialects, valley-girl, surfer dude, etc. These can extend beyond high-school, but it's rare.
Rural communities have something of the Southern/Midwest sound to them.
Finally, all immigrant communities, of course, have their own accents based on their country of origin.
What, you just felt the need to insult the citizenry of an entire state? That's classy.
Was that passive aggressive enough fer ya, or should I lay it on thicker?
That valley sound is the younger generation's little invention no matter what part of California that they live in.It is annoying to me.
No accent in the U.S. is "set in stone." NBC News linked to articles on linguistic changes in New England a few years ago.
I was born California and lived there until I was 21, I've lived in Mississippi now most of my life and I think the author isn't drawing any distinction between Black and White, therein lies a huge distinction.
I've lived in California my whole life and, besides using the word "hella," I've never said or pronounced words the way the article says Californians do. I've never heard anyone say "block" for "black," nor have I ever had an issue with pen and pin.
I'm confused. I grew up in Southern California (Burbank), and don't recall ever hearing/using the word "hella." What is it?
"hell of a".
Thank you peanut. I've always pronounced it "helluva." Whatever.
It doesn't always mean "hell of a." Young people use it different, like the song, "[I'm] Feeling Hella Good." I grew up in Las Vegas and we'd say, "it's hella hot outside" "this house is hella nice" and that type of thing.
hella = very. Dialect word which I wouldn't use. That would be hella dumb.
Like, the other day I was schralpin' down the face of this ginormous wave off trestles. I was totally in the greenroom and did a radical cutback and tried a reentry...but went over the falls and got pushed into the soup. Some noink from the flatland cut me off and I put my skeg right into his rail. Other than that, it was a bitchin' day.
Signed ~ Professor from Pepperdine U.
Slang is not the same as an accent.
You totally didn't hear how I said it dude.
Some Californians share commonalities with Southerners, notably the switch between was and were. Many Southerners say, “We was at the store” instead of, “We were at the store," and Californians also sometimes swapped was and were. She also observed that Californians blended pen/pin, with speakers saying both
words the same, much like people in the South.
I'm from Southern California (born in San Diego in the 1950s). Those aren't examples of "accents," those are examples of poor grammar and sloppy pronunciation -- because of either ignorance or apathy.
I remember my mother (originally from Oklahoma!) teaching us the difference between pen/pin and
get/git when I was nine. Out of four siblings, only two pronounce those correctly now – definitely some apathy going on there.
I totally agree with you - I've lived in San Diego my whole life and have never heard anyone speak this way. When I read the article, my initial reaction was that it was just poor grammar. "We was at the store" is not an accent, it is the improper conjugation of a verb.
Don't forget that you were taught different pronunciation and grammar than generations before you. English has always changed.
Assuming this article is highlighting the current generation of Californians, then we are still talking about poor grammar as opposed to these being examples of a "California accent". I would never speak this way. Saying a word with a distinct inflection is an accent - improperly conjugating a verb is poor grammar. One thing I do agree that (southern) Californians do (like in the SNL sketch) is talk about how we are going to get somewhere by road names and freeways (also, saying "the" before a freeway number)!
People who use incorrect grammar in their speech live in all 50 states.
I realized that in my first response, I used the word "totally" - there's that Californian "accent" for you! Well, more like a SoCal dialect. I definitely agree that we have that. We had an intern from France and he was so proud that he had picked up the "California accent" while he was here - meaning using certain words, not using poor grammar. Totally, for sure! We don't use hella down here though - that's a NorCal thing.
Your grandparents will tell you that people use grammar poorly these days. Their grandparents will tell them that they use grammar poorly.
What one generation views as "poor grammar" the next generation may view as proper grammar. Today, what we take to be proper grammar is yesteryear's "poor grammar."
For example:
Actually, my grandparents use(d) the same grammar that I do. I think we're battling over different things - there is no getting around the fact that you should not say "we was at the store" instead of "we were at the store"; they are different tenses, and was would be the incorrect use. It is not the same thing as saying "hopefully it won't rain today" instead of "I hope it doesn't rain today". "Annoying" speech patterns are not the same as poor grammar. Yes, my grandparents probably hate the slang words that we use so frequently nowadays, but at least we use them in the proper context. One could only argue that my grandparents' generation and those before them did not have the same emphasis on education that we have today, so the use of proper English grammar was not as widely known.
In fifty years that may be perfectly acceptable, not that I care to use it nor hear it. Grammar and syntax changes over time.
I don't think you'll understand though, considering something so simple as what I quoted flew over your head. Indeed, in grammatical circles, "hopefully" is still being debated.
Likewise, the words that constitute present tense over time change.
Hopefully you will release the misconceptions you have so that you may learn that English is not nearly as static as you believe it to be.
The simple example that you quoted did not go over my head, as you so rudely suggested; it just did not pertain to the discussion at hand. I understand that language changes over time, but trying to compare your example to mine is like apples to oranges. "We was at the store" will never be the correct usage, regardless of how many examples you try to cite. If it was commonplace in the past, it is simply because previous generations were not educated as we are today. Only an grammar elitist would understand the minute difference between hopefully and I hope; that is not the same as incorrectly conjugating a verb, something that the average American would immediately recognize as a grammatical mistake. I am sorry you cannot comprehend the difference between our two examples. Hopefully we can just agree to disagree.
Grammar mistakes bother me so much that I feel compelled to correct something in my previous response. I originally wrote "an extreme grammar..." but ended up removing extreme. Therefore, that sentence should read:
"Only a grammar elitist would understand the minute difference between hopefully and I hope..."
Ahhh, I feel better now.
This will be my final post.
Then you don't understand at all.
I guess you'll only learn how wrong you are in a few decades.
It's an example where word usage changes. You focus on the tree, but fail to see the forest.
Go back hundreds of years and you can see that in parts, sentence structure itself changes. Go look at the history of languages such as French, and you'll see that it stems from Vulgar Latin, otherwise known as the language that uneducated people spoke in the Roman Empire (that is, they spoke with poor grammar).
In terms of world languages, English is very unstructured and is well known as a language of exceptions. We do not have the rigid rules that a language like German has, and as such English grammar, word use, and syntax changes over time naturally. What is viewed as proper nowadays will be viewed as outdated in several decades. Do you mean to tell me that you have never listened to your (educated) grandparents and thought to yourself "hmm, the way they speaks sounds so out-of-date"? There are certain ways that sentences are structured today properly that would be viewed as slang decades ago.
But then again, as you have so clearly shown, you can't understand this. It goes over your head.
I'd love to hear you try to say that people today speak as they do in Henry James' or Edith Wharton's novels. Also try Faulkner.
Wow, you really schooled me. That was sarcasm, by the way - just wanted to make sure that didn't go over your head.
As long as "we was at the store" is not a generally accepted phrase in my lifetime, I'll be happy. I am confident that my generation and at least a few that follow will understand what we know today to be proper grammar. Trying to compare the way we speak to a hundred+ years ago is just downright silly, and you know it. We live in the digital age, where the language that we speak today will live on infinitely. The only thing that may change is that I will type LOL to your inevitable response instead of actually laughing out loud.
The fact that you are implying that we should continue to use the improper grammar of yesteryear instead of evolving to a more modern way of speaking is mind boggling to me. The original argument was that "we was at the store" does not indicate the existence of a California accent, but simply is an unfortunate example of uneducated citizens using outdated or improper grammar. I think even your friends James, Wharton, and Faulkner would agree with me. Fabulous name-drops, by the way.
Thanks for the "debate", boom! reason. It's been real.
*sigh* You really have poor reading comprehension. Take a look at what I actually said on that matter.
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It's too bad that we don't have any written records or documents from hundreds or even thousands of years ago to show us how people wrote. Oh wait: we do. Language that was spoken and written in the past has survived! It's a miracle!
Please engage your brain, as it will help you to comprehend even simple matters such as these. First you say that such grammatical use will never change ("'We was at the store' will never be the correct usage, regardless of how many examples you try to cite.'), then you complain when I show you of works from the past that show that our grammar changes.
I never argued against you on that point.
I implore you to allow them to be your friends as well. Go ahead and become acclimated with their works.
That way, you can't possibly continue to attempt to claim that English grammar does not change. Many changes come from many uneducated people misusing proper grammar of the day, then subsequently becoming acceptable forms. All that needs to be done to prove you wrong is to look at the history of our language. Is it that you are afraid to learn? Why are you afraid to realize that you do not know what you believe yourself to know?
Yes, we have books that will someday soon be obsolete. We no longer reference books in terms of language, but you can't possibly say we won't reference the internet (you know, where all the books and newspapers are going to end up) for many years to come. My understanding is that we are in an age unlike ever before and there would be no reason to revert to something that, at this point, is so extensively documented to be incorrect. It appears that you insist on living in the past. Is this your first time using the World Wide Web? You can try to talk down to me, but you don't know me at all. You are not nearly as smart as you think you are.
I thought I made it clear that my argument was not that language does not or will not change? See entry #17.9 if you don't remember, or just continue reading if you're too lazy to go back.
I am sorry that you are simply incapable of comprehending this fact. You are beating a dead horse, my friend.
I truly do feel that using "was" instead of "were" will never again be a grammatically acceptable way of speaking. This is my one and only argument that I was trying to get across when commenting on the fact that I was surprised the article used this as an example of a California accent. Not once did I say that our language or grammatical way of speaking will not change someday in the future, but again, I do not think that improperly conjugating "to be" will ever be one of those changes.
All I have left to say is LOL. I know it's hard not to have the last word, but this needs to stop. I have a real life to get back to.
You think wrong. But hey, at least you are not afraid to show that you have a small imagination! Maybe one day you'll realize that you are merely repeating the same arguments that have repeated over generations. As they say, one should learn from history so as to not repeat it.
To directly refute (yes, again) you, all one needs to do is look to our past. Verb conjugation is not static. Our current conjugations are not exactly how they were in the past. Other languages, too, are not static and it can be seen that verb conjugations are changing.
You need help.
its really only because of the influx of folks in and out so often. You would never be able to pin down a single state accent, its simply too diverse. I've had family in Cali for over a century and a half and our accents only is influenced by other languages learned. Spanglish certainly has its place as does quite a bit of French, a lot of it has to do with the proper pronunciation of locations that indeed have spanish and french names. It's much easier to tell if someones visiting or new to the state based on the way they pronounce locations. At the same time, some locations are mispronounced on purpose often by natives, case and point, San Francisco and Los Angeles.
You mean Frisco and LA? ;-)
only people from SoCal say Frisco. you will get dirty looks in the bay for using that word.
Barbara, you must be a Dodgers fan...............lol
RealPatriot!
Re: only people from SoCal say Frisco. you will get dirty looks in the bay for using that word
Interesting! What do "Frisco" people call it? ;-)
mike430
Re: Barbara, you must be a Dodgers fan...............lol
Guilty! ;-)
I never expected that the town of "Gasquet" would be pronounced as it is. Gaskee. Here I was thinking Gaskeé.
Barbara, people in Northern California refer to San Francisco simply as "The City." In fact, if you stay at a hotel in Oakland and ask the front desk clerk for "a map of the city," s/he will hand you a map of San Francisco.
Ask for a map of Frisco -- if you dare -- and you will receive a cold stare and probably a correction. It's for your own good. The desk clerk doesn't want you to get hurt. LOL
By the way, I laughed when I read that the researchers were doing their research in Bakersfield. It's so far from the mainstream in California it's practically a foreign country. Lots and lots of Oklahoma and Arkansas influence there, due to the dust bowl migration in the 1930s ... plus Texas influence from the local oil industry and trucking. Not native Californian at all. (I lived there for seven years.)
There is no such thing as native Californian. Every aspect of life there is from another source.
What always amazed me about accents is that I find myself living in the only part of the country where we do not speak with any accent, not at all.
Jeez. I live in California and the only people I find who use the "like, oh my gawd" and the "dude" phrases are those stuck in high school or are influenced by crappy tv stereotypes. Even in high school I remember hearing the jocks and preps using these sayings to make it seem like the were cooler than they were. And these phrases are said in the air-head, stoner way across the country because that is how television dictates how it's said. I've met friends from the east coast who do have distinct accents and I've been told I have a non-generic accent. It really depends on your family history of descent, language and culture as well as how you are influenced by outside forces such as the media and those who you are around aside from family.
Well, interviewing people in Redding, Merced and Bakersfield explains a lot about the use of "the positive anymore" and the "switch between 'was' and 'were.'" They also say things like, "I seen him at the store" rather than "I saw him at the store." Most of those people are borderline illiterate. They should have also mentioned in the article the level of education of the people they interviewed. I grew up in the South and lived in New York City for 16 years. When I moved to Bakersfield I was appalled at what I heard coming out of people's mouths. I don't call that "diversity."
Dustbowlers.
Way to be classist much? Basic linguistic theory - there is no "right" dialect/accent, just one that is valued more because it happens to be used by those of privilege/power. Now written language is a whole other story.
You're in Iowa. Spend some time in Bakersfield and then feel free to opine on the cultural merit of their speech, ese.
My family has been in SoCal for over a century and I don't recall hearing any pen/pin or hella or any of the other words attributed to Californians. Proper english was encouraged by my grandparents/aunts/uncles/parents, no slang, definitely no ebonics.
With Mexican influences,we pronounce the locations correctly.
I do know that in my travels, I can tell if a person has a california influence, but our accents, if any are very slight!!!
I was born and raised in California--grew up in the South, now live in the North. I have NEVER said "We was at the store" instead of "We were at the store". I take exception to the statement that it's a Californian way of speaking. That's an uneducated way of speaking...regardless of location. I've also never used--or even heard of--a "positive anymore". I do pronounce Don/Dawn and pen/pin the same way however. The use of "hella" is a Northern California thing, especially among young people.
I never heard hella in noCal before No Doubt used it in a song-- and they're soCal.
I say Dawn/Don the same way. My middle name is Dawn and my mom named me after my Uncle Don. I don't know how else one would pronounce it.
I totally agree, akabusyness. I've lived in (Northern) California all my life and I've never heard the "positive anymore" thing. Especially since I work in the ESL department of an adult school, I often wonder if my speaking sounds like an accent to the students in the department. As I walk around campus every day, I do hear the Ebonics speech, which makes me cringe. They're in for a rude awakening if they want to have any kind of career or educational success speaking that way.
Interesting article though. I still think, of all of the accents in the US, people from the South have the coolest accent. And, I love that y'all thing. So cute!
All I have to say is --> Stupid is as stupid does...
LOL Who gives a @!$%# lets find something else to report on what a waste of time and resources
And then, there's the fascinating subject of punctuation. ;-)