Bad at math -- or is it dyscalculia?

Described as the mathematical equivalent of dyslexia, dyscalculia is a little-known disorder that makes it extremely difficult to learn math. While dyslexics struggle with reading and interpreting words and letters, dyscalculics have a hard time with basic arithmetic and understanding the meaning and concepts of numbers.

Although often a forgotten stepchild to its well-known relative dyslexia, dyscalculia affects the same number of people -- an estimated 5 to 7 percent of the population, suggests new research in the May 27 issue of Science.

Often first discovered by low scores on math achievement tests, both children and adults who suffer from dyscalculia have trouble grasping the size of a number and its relative value. 

Unlike dyslexics, however, they don't reverse the order of numbers when reading them.  "Typically, dyscalculics don't have problems with the order of symbols, but anything with numbers could cause anxiety or even panic," says Brian Butterworth, an emeritus professor of cognitive neuroscience at University College London, and lead author of the Science review article.

While many people think they're bad at math or don't have a head for numbers, dyscalculics are slower and less accurate at estimating the number of sets of objects and selecting the larger of two numbers, explains Butterworth.

For example, if dyscalculics were shown two playing cards -- a 5 and an 8 -- and asked to say which card was larger, they would count all the symbols on each card. If asked to count down from 10, they would count up from 1 to 10, then 1 to 9, then 1 to 8, etc.

They might use their fingers to count and do simple addition, far beyond the age when it's normally done. And they are challenged by making change and handling money, and estimating the height of a room (they may say 200 feet). They also have trouble with concepts of time, like approximating how long a car trip will take.

Dyscalculia appears to be inherited, and scientists have begun to identify abnormalities in the brain that make learning math such a grind.

Even so, it's important for those affected to realize that "having a serious problem learning arithmetic does not mean you are stupid," says Butterworth.

In fact, the disability can affect people with normal intelligence and normal working memory, or be seen in those with other developmental difficulties, such as dyslexia and ADHD. Some adults with severe dyscalculia can even be very good at geometry and using statistical packages, and capable of doing college-level computer programming. So it doesn't affect all mathematical abilities or skills.

But it can be a lifelong liability if it's misdiagnosed, unrecognized by teachers or not properly treated.

The paper calls for greater attention and funding for the problem, and specialized teaching that strengthens the processing of numbers using concrete materials, such as beads and counters, supported by game-like software for learners. 

The important thing is to not go on to more advanced concepts until the basics have been mastered, says Butterworth.  

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Have you noticed that anything that people are bad at someone manages to give it a name and call it a disorder to justify it? I lose my car keys a lot. Is there a name for that or should I just tell people I'm "transportationally challenged"?

  • 13 votes
#1 - Tue May 31, 2011 10:43 AM EDT

@LBowman,

Disorders like this are not simply a matter of "giving a name" to something any time someone struggles with something. There are lots of people that struggle with math and this can happen for any of a long list of reasons. Some people may struggle because of low intelligence, for example. Or, someone might struggle with math because of emotional problems. Others may struggle due to plain old laziness.

A person with dyscalculia, however, has severe problems with math that are clearly disproportionate to their overall level of intelligence and scholastic ability.

The brain is an incredibly complex organ in which different cognitive skills involve different areas of the brain. Knowing that, there is nothing particularly suprising about the idea that people can have a clinically significant deficit in one or more areas, despite normal or even superior skills in other areas.

When a child has a severe, selective problem with math (despite normal or even superior skills in other subjects) we need to know that. When a smart child struggles with math, we need to know why. The solution to the problem is very different if he's just lazy, as opposed to ADHD, as opposed to dyscalculia. Establishing dyscalculia as a diagnostic category is an attempt to do just that.

If a child wants to do well in math but struggles due to a learning disability that ONLY affects that subject, you're going to do more harm than good if you just call him lazy and punish him.

What is really needed to provide the extra help the child needs to understand the material. That's not excusing the failure with a label. In most cases, it will result in MORE work and EXTRA help for the child.

  • 27 votes
#1.1 - Tue May 31, 2011 11:36 AM EDT

And the more press it gets the more overdiagnosed it will become.

  • 12 votes
#1.2 - Tue May 31, 2011 2:20 PM EDT

I always thought that Dyscalcula or sometimes called "Can't Count Dracula was that guy that stalked people after dark and bit them on the neck. he was so bad at math he couldn't even keep up with simple time keeping and always got caught up not being in his coffin before the sun rose.

  • 1 vote
#1.3 - Tue May 31, 2011 3:36 PM EDT

lBowman and JJMurray: Yours is a common reaction to something not well known--dismissal. Talk to any grade school or middle school teacher and you'll see that this is real regardless of whether you were aware of it. A closed mind is a terrible thing.

  • 13 votes
#1.4 - Tue May 31, 2011 3:55 PM EDT

I do agree, ADHD, Autism, and various other disorders are grossly over diagnosed. That being said, often people with the actual disorder or learning difference are often overlooked. Unfortunately for me I was a part of the Texas education system. I didn't learn to read till I was nine and my math skills were simply miserable. I only barely managed to scrape by because my comprehension was so good, but put numbers to a problem and they would just fly around in my head.

I believed my teachers when they told me I wasn't working hard enough and spent countless nights crying and having panic attacks over my math homework. FINALLY when I got to college I decided to take a remedial math course because there was no reason why I couldn't pass it. I went to tutoring every day after class and studied on weekends and still could not do it. Which was especially frustrating since I understood completely the theory... it was just the numbers that messed me up.

After a while I finally decided to get tested for ADHD, which includes testing for learning disabilities and IQ. It was the most incredible reveal of my life. I had Dyslexia, Dyscalculia, and ADHD. I asked the doctor why I was able to read so well (once I figured it out, I was reading and analyzing Poe at nine) and why was I able to read from scripts relatively easily (aside from a few missed/mixed up words here and there.) She told me it was because I had been reading aloud so much (something I had forced myself to do as a child) and once I figured out how to use context clues, even though the word wasn't right in my eyes, I would be able to deduce which word it SHOULD be. As for the ADHD, I managed to somewhat control myself and focus enough to get through classes. I was an A-B student except when it came to math.

This had always been a sore subject for me, my dad and teachers were constantly berating me for not trying enough, not studying enough... I was even called lazy and stupid. I had always thought I was just dumb and would have to accept that, until the Doctor told me about the dyscalculia. My math reasoning and comprehension was well above average, but my achievement was borderline (3 points less and I would have been considered mentally challenged in math achievement) she explained to me that such a difference between comprehension and achievement meant that there was a reason why I could never do math. I had the mental capacity to understand it, but add numbers and it was gibberish. I told her that it was just because I wasn't smart, because why else wouldn't I be able to do simple math? Why else was I still having to count on my fingers for problems as simple as 8+5?

Then she showed me my IQ score. 130, not genius, but well above average. I cried, all of my life because of my learning difference I had thought that I was stupid and useless, but I just had a problem. I was waived out of math in college and had to take logic as a replacement course (essentially complex algebra but with ideas instead of numbers) I got 100% in that course.

I hope that whomever reads this will take to heart that yes, we do live in a culture which diagnosis every little problem, but there are truly people out there who are struggling. Often in silence.

  • 19 votes
#1.5 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:28 PM EDT

@AP-1414066 - Of course the teacher is going to blame it on something other than their own poor performance as a teacher. Do you think they'd say "I'm a horrible teacher and deserve to be fired?" No, of course not. A closed mind may be a terrible thing but making up "conditions" to explain somebody's intellectual inferiority when it comes to a particular subject or a teacher's pathetic job performance is even worse.

  • 2 votes
#1.6 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:32 PM EDT

Is Dyscalcula the vampire on Sesame Street? You know....One Ringy Dingy...Two Ringy Dingy.....Ha Ha Ha....Three Ringy Dingies!!!

  • 1 vote
#1.7 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:33 PM EDT

If I understand correctly what you mean by "dismissal", as in a complete disregard for the importance of learning something, then this is indeed a severe and profound issue in schools today.

Much has been made recently of supposedly poor quality teaching, but I would submit that the much more pervasive and problematic issue is poor quality learning. Many students do not see any significance whatsoever to their own efforts, or lack thereof. They have been trained by their own personal experience that working hard or doing nothing in class ends in the same result, i.e. getting passed on to the next grade due to "social promotion". The only difference is that the hard working kids are mocked by their peers for being 'school-boys'. The overall result is a generation of lazy school kids who don't want to do anything and don't care if they get an F in every single class, until at the high school level they get dropped for not attaining enough credits.

The social promotion policies were intially enacted decades ago, ostensibly to protect the "self esteem" of the learner. When it was determined that there is a correlation between A) early retention and B) later high school drop out, it was erroneously assumed that A causes B. It doesn't. There's even a name for this logical fallacy, "ad hoc ergo propter hoc", but I won't bore you with the details here. Suffice it to say, both outcomes are caused by other external factors, socio-economic conditions, an lack of emphasis on learning in the home environment, dysfunctional family, etc.

In my personal opinion, in order to right the educational ship, we've got end these mistaken policies, hold students accountable, and stop blaming the teachers. Of course, to retain half the school kids across the nation, until they get the message that doing their assignments is important, will require a huge influx of money. I don't know if we, as a nation are committed to doing this, but I think we must.

  • 3 votes
#1.8 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:33 PM EDT

@ LittleBitTx, I feel for you! My son is similar to you. He has inattentive ADD, dyslexia, dyscalculia, and dysgraphia. His IQ is 128 yet all the studying in the world won't help him write, spell, do math, memorize the times tables, or any of the other things most kids can do. Even being diagnosed at 11 years old didn't help him. He's almost 17 now and has pretty much given up on school. He won't even consider going to college because school has always been so demoralizing. My heart breaks when I think of how much harder his life will always be because of these disorders.

  • 5 votes
#1.9 - Tue May 31, 2011 5:01 PM EDT

As someone who has dyscalculia I can tell you that you would be surprised at the number of Educators in this country who have never heard of it. I suffered all through school thinking that I was stupid, my teachers on the other hand just thought that I was lazy. I did not get diagnosed until I was a Sophomore in College. Unlike some of the other learning disabilities, dyscalculia can NOT be faked. This is not something that you can pretend to have to get out of doing math. It had a drastically negative effect on my self-esteem growing up, I felt very inadequate and stupid. I used to dread the Teacher calling on me in class to answer a question, because I knew that I would get it wrong. Not only can dyscalculia affect your ability with math but learning a foreign language as well as grammar. I am thinking of going after my Masters degree but am hesitant because you have to take the GRE, and I know that I can not possibly get the math score that I need. Those who criticize have NO idea what it is like to have such a disability. I spent many Summers in Summer school and tutoring. I once had a math teacher in summer school who told my parent's, the guidance counselor, the principal and I that if I went to tutoring every day and got help then she would make sure that I passed. I went to Summer school and tutoring every day for six weeks, at the end of Summer school she flunked me anyway. Fortunately, the principal stepped in after it was brought to his attention and made her pass me. He told her that I couldn't try any harder that I had and that it was not fair to punish me. Needless to say my diagnosis accomplished for me a feeling and knowledge that I was NOT stupid, my brain simply worked differently thanothers. I have never used my disability to get out of anything in College or requested special treatment. To some it up no one should criticize what that have no knowledge of and compare it to other disabilities out there. More research and more funding needs to be devoted to this disability. The word needs to be spread so that others do not suffer like I did, needlessly.

  • 3 votes
#1.10 - Tue May 31, 2011 5:07 PM EDT

@Sean--It's pretty easy to point the finger at teachers, even if mostly unjustified. To be sure, there are teachers that are performing poorly, however, they are NOT in high proportions. Unfortunately, there ARE high proportions of poorly-involved parents. It's pretty sad when, as a parent, you have an easy time picking your timeslot for parent-teacher conferences...and see the same sets of parents at those and other events. This is at a good suburban school--even here the parental involvement is sparce (unless, of course, you change the subject from academics to sports). No, I am not a teacher...just an involved parent.

  • 1 vote
#1.11 - Tue May 31, 2011 5:20 PM EDT

I myself have a learning disable I manage to get B,C and in spelling D your need to know how to say the word so your can spell it. I used my memory. My IQ is high. I hated myself for not trying hard enough my mother always call me dumb. I had some teacher who did help, I quit high school later inlife I got my GED and then when on to collage graducate with AAS.

  • 3 votes
#1.12 - Tue May 31, 2011 5:33 PM EDT

Loving Mom 4, I didn't know that about the difficulty learning a foreign language. I guess that explains why my son went through 3 years of Spanish and yet still couldn't understand me when I asked him, "¿Cómo esta usted?"

I don't know if other states are doing this as well, but NM is going to start mandatory testing all high school students before they can get a diploma. If the students can't pass even one area, say math, they won't be able to get their diplomas. This sounds good ... "Hey great, the schools will have to teach the kids!!" In practice, however, students with learning disabilities will be so left behind.

My son has a high IQ with numerous learning disabilities. He's a whiz at science and history and his verbal language skills are off the charts, but he can't do math or write an essay to save his life. He will never be able to pass that test, no matter how many tutors he sees or how much studying he does. Lucky for him, the diploma withholding doesn't start until the year after he graduates. I feel really bad for the kids with learning disabilities who will struggle through 12 years of school, only to be denied a diploma. :o(

  • 3 votes
#1.13 - Tue May 31, 2011 5:48 PM EDT

Way to go Palmquist1. Going back to school was a very good move.

  • 1 vote
#1.14 - Tue May 31, 2011 5:51 PM EDT

Shan, if NM sets up their system anything like it in California where we have had the CAHSEE (California High School Exit Exam) for going on 8 years now, they will provide an exemption for kids who are genuinely diagnosed with learning disabilties. Currently, the SPED kids here have to take the exam once, but if they don't pass it, they are not currently required to take "intervention" classes and keep trying again and again as the "regular" kids do.

That said, the exam is good thing. It forces kids to buckle down and master certain basics. As I commented above, many kids are passed on up through the grades due to social promotion policies even though they do not have a mastery of even the most rudimentary math skills, and I'm not talking about kids with dyscalculia here, I'm talking about those who are fully capable of learning, but haven't done so because they didn't have to.

  • 1 vote
#1.15 - Tue May 31, 2011 6:22 PM EDT

MikeyMike, thanks for your input. The way the high school coordinator explained it to me is that if the student fails to pass, no diploma, whether they have diagnosed disabilities or not ... Unless they are in the Special Ed program, in which case they'll get a "Special" certificate that shows they completed the classes, but still no diploma.

Having a child with learning disabilities has been a learning experience for ME. School was so easy for me. School, at least here in NM, is a terrible, demeaning experience for kids with learning disabilities.

  • 1 vote
#1.16 - Tue May 31, 2011 7:10 PM EDT

Maybe this can explain why I have seen college aged kids not be able to tell me what half of 3 was, or another that couldn't calculate 3+4-5.

  • 1 vote
#1.17 - Tue May 31, 2011 7:19 PM EDT

Richard, I don't know if this pertains to the people you're talking about but, in addition to discalculia, dyslexia, etc, etc., my son has very poor working memory. In your example 3+4-5, most people could easily solve it in their heads in seconds. In my son's case, he figures out what 3+4 is, then goes to subtract 5. Then realizes he's forgotten the answer to 3+4. So, with a simple problem like that, he could answer it on paper, but not by figuring it in his head. It's horribly frustrating for him.

  • 2 votes
#1.18 - Tue May 31, 2011 7:38 PM EDT

@Littlebittx

I got a laugh out of your post because it sounds similar to me its just scary. I was diagnosed as a kid with ADHD, LD, and suffer from disgraphia. Growing up as a kid sucked and I wouldn't be surprised if I had dyscalculia. Oddly enough when I was tested years ago I had an IQ in the 130s, its scary to be a smart kid in a school who has ADHD...your labeled as a bad kid since your bored to death since the material isn't challenging enough and your energy keeps you from sitting still for hours on end. Granted it took me years to get my ADHD under control to the point where I can sit still, get my handwriting to the point where it was readable and learn ways to teach myself to get around the LD. I still suck at math to this day but glad I don't have to use the complicated stuff for day to day living.

@lovingmom

I feel your pain, I'm looking into grad school and dread the GRE exam. I barely broke 1,000 on my SAT and graduated high honors 3.8x GPA from college, I fear the GRE may hurt my chance at getting into a good grad program.

My advice for all parents with kids who have LD's or suspect they may have them tested and stick with them, never get angry at them, never lose your patience with them if it takes a long time for them to understand to you an elementary process to us its much more complicated. I have to say my mom was amazing at that she stayed with me and was my support. : )

  • 4 votes
#1.19 - Tue May 31, 2011 7:53 PM EDT

things like this is why the no child left behind stuff is going to go away very soon. It requires that all students (100%... learning disability or not) to pass end of course standardized tests. If it is as bad as described,how someone w/

dyscalculia pass my Algebra I, or Algebra II end of course test?

I have had many students who have this complete inability to think using numbers... although a lot of students inabilities comes from them relying on the calculator to do all their thinking for them (not dismissing this disorder at all, but many normal kids cannot do 10+10x0 and get the right answer). See the link below to see what I'm talking about....

http://failbook.failblog.org/2011/05/31/funny-facebook-fails-x/

  • 2 votes
#1.20 - Wed Jun 1, 2011 8:58 AM EDT

HOLY COW!!! I had never heard of this, but I have always had math difficulty. The only tests I ever failed were math, and the last one I failed was a math test in college, and it took me hundreds of hours of studying to get through that course. I just took a math class required for my profession, and while my score meets the national standard of 70, the state of Florida requires a 75, meaning I did not pass. I studied hard, and have been kicking myself for being stupid, although I know my IQ is very high, and I have aced most of the required classes. I know that with enough time and effort I can pass this - obviously my case is not as bad as some others, but it makes me so happy to read that I am not stupid!!!

  • 1 vote
#1.21 - Wed Jun 1, 2011 11:50 AM EDT

pat1952, I'm right there with you! I was a straight A student throughout grade school & high school with the exception of math or any associated studies that involved math like Algebra, Calculus and even Trigonometry. I could NOT "get it." I was SO frustrated by math in the 1st grade that while taking a test I wrote: "Mrs. X is stupid." English & Spelling I had down pat and was reading entire books by age 3. Literature literally turned me on! Biology was awesome! But math eluded me and eludes me to this very day. It doesn't make sense, to me, that is.

I can ONLY imagine how I might have fared had there been an appropriate class for people like me; if there had been ANY concern on the part of the teacher or my parents or anyone, for that matter. What's WRONG with this picture when a child is fully disciplined to study, complete homework tasks on time, tests well in all other subjects and maintains an A average and even gets put into Honors English, but is failing math? It was NOT for lack of trying, I can tell you that. I was and am a perfectionist. It was HUMILIATING to not be able to grasp the subject matter and, even more so, to fail so miserably for 12 long years.

The nay-sayers can nay-say all they want. But the fact of the matter is that there are highly intelligent students out there who aren't making the grade and it's NOT because they don't care or aren't trying/studying enough. My husband is Dyslexic and he is a CFO. He found himself in numbers and I found myself in letters. We compliment each other. . .he handles the finances and manages his company's finances, and I do all the "wordy" stuff and help him and his company out by writing the narrative portions of presentations, non-legal documents, etc. However, I STILL cannot shake my fear of math and my feelings of having failed when I tried SO HARD!

  • 3 votes
#1.22 - Wed Jun 1, 2011 5:59 PM EDT

I suffer with this, I am 68 years old. "word" math problems were like a foreign tongue. I was slapped by the Nuns and dismissed as lazy by my family. No child should have to go through that.

  • 3 votes
#1.23 - Wed Jun 1, 2011 7:20 PM EDT

The kid sucks at math it's not a disorder it's a fact.These quacks will do anything to put our kids on some new drug that more than likely has nothing to do with the cause.

  • 1 vote
#1.24 - Fri Jun 3, 2011 8:13 AM EDT

The problem with people with the mind set that things are over diagnosed is that diseases that need to be diagnosed go undiagnosed. My son has ADHD and after 9 yrs of having the same troubles and a GI doctor telling us "Oh he's just lazy". We find out he has a very little know disease called Hirschsprung's Disease. We are now dealing with a lot of surgery's and emotional problem's because he was told for almost 9 yrs oh your just lazy. He has a problem with math and I just try and help him threw it but it might be better if he was incouraged instead of discouraged and told he was lazy or dumb.

  • 1 vote
#1.25 - Fri Jun 3, 2011 10:02 AM EDT

Not everyone is the same!! Some people are better than others in certain skills and this is no exception. Everything these days are a disorder. GIVE ME A BREAK!! Take a pill says the experts, we will fix the one problem, but you will get a dozen other from the side effects.

I can't play basketball at the level Michael Jordan played, so I suppose it must be some kind of disorder. Maybe the government can take care of me now.

  • 1 vote
#1.26 - Fri Jun 3, 2011 1:23 PM EDT
Reply

So now there are no more bad math teachers or lazy students? Good to know that I have a good excuse for not paying attention during math classes!

  • 4 votes
Reply#2 - Tue May 31, 2011 11:19 AM EDT

I honestly don't mean to be rude, but it's not that hard to educate yourself about a disorder before you post. All you need to do is google "dyscalculia" and read about the disorder at the National Center for Learning Disabilities website (one of the first few that come up) or at any other reputable site.

This disorder has absolutely NOTHING to do with excusing bad math teachers or lazy students (both of which cause a wide range of failures, not a severe and ***ISOLATED*** problem learning math in 1 child.

  • 19 votes
#2.1 - Tue May 31, 2011 11:40 AM EDT

Junicon

It is not a thing of educating ourselves... It is the idea of blaming our own faults on others. With a prevalence if 1 to 3% (some authors put it up to 7%) the number of children suffering from true dyscalculia is far below the number of children with poor results in Math.

I insist, this is a problem mainly related to poor teaching techniques (memorizing vs. true understanding), lack of student involvement (math is tough, don't sweat it, a C or D is good enough) and Poor society standards (you have your HS diploma, you don`t need anything else). Same thing can be said for the many functional illiterates that blame it on dyslexia.

For the people REALLY suffering Dyscalculia, we need to implement better teaching techniques focused on their specific problem. For the rest of us... This is just another excuse for poor performance.

  • 1 vote
#2.2 - Tue May 31, 2011 2:48 PM EDT

That's an unbelievably ignorant post. You really don't understand what you're talking about--This isn't simply a matter of "struggling" or getting a C or D. Good grief I hope you are no where near the education field and no where near being responsible for any children.

  • 5 votes
#2.3 - Tue May 31, 2011 3:58 PM EDT

Ap

Ignorance is not knowing how to read. I never said "Struggling" I said lack of involvement and its result lack of responsibility.

If a student is struggling to get a C or a D and this is the max he/she can do, a C or D is great!. Read the whole statement: LACK OF STUDENT INVOLVEMENT = Conformism, LACK OF TEACHING TECHNIQUES= Easy tasks for teachers, memorize, do not understand, POOR SOCIETY STANDARDS... Need more to say that nowadays we are below #50 worldwide in education?

And YES I am in the educational field, but I believe far above your level, training MD's and Nurses. Yes, I am involved in Children's education also: My own children... Both of them very successful, both of them understanding what they are learning and both of them having also a lot of free time to play, read, watch TV or whatever they want (and no, they are not home schooled, they are both on public schools).

Again... an incidence of 1 to 3% is hardly a health problem... Our own poor performance is our own fault, for THOSE FEW SUFFERING FROM LEARNING DISORDERS we need to create a true educational model to get them to reach their maximum potential.

  • 1 vote
#2.4 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:20 PM EDT

Just another made up ailment to excuse stupidity.

  • 1 vote
#2.5 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:49 PM EDT

As I stated above, the root of the larger problem is social promotion. We didn't get to a situation where 75% of highschool kids are not proficient in Algebra because of a few kids (maybe 5-7%) with dyscalculia. We didn't get here because of few bad teachers at the elementary or middle school or high school level. To be sure, there are indeed a FEW ineffective teachers out there, but by and large every teacher I know is doing their best to create engaging lessons, to present content in a comprehensible manner, and to help support their students to succeed in any way that they can. From what I hear, only about half of the students (or less) even care about they are being taught. They have come to believe that their own efforts are meaningless, and that school is a waste of their time. They won't do homework. They're perfectly satisfied getting F grades as a result because nothing happens. They just get moved along to the next grade. This is a gigantic problem and it's getting worse.

End social promotion and you will, with time, fix the educational system.

  • 3 votes
#2.6 - Tue May 31, 2011 6:35 PM EDT

As a child I remember having dreaded math so bad that I ended up dropping out of school in the 9th grade. Subsequently however I ended up getting my G.E.D. and joining the U.S. Air Force 6 months later. Working on some of the most advanced fighter jets at that time the F-16 which I helped bring online.

Further I went onto master many college courses and subsequently ended up on the Dean's List of every college I attended, finally retiring at 47 years old from Northrop Grumman after resolving a complex technological issue faced by MDA that's the U.S. Missile Defense Agency, had been plagued with.

Even though I suffered in silence what I have come to realize is that as I get older my concepts of understanding complex equations has magnified, hey there something to study eh!.

And even in my retirement at the ripe old age of 50 I still get a thrill learning languages as I am now teaching my self Arabic, Spanish and Portuguese, so that I can have option when the U.S. hits can no longer pay it's debt's and go into default.

Granted I pray this does not happen, however should it I will be well prepared to move to a foreign nation with my gold, silver, and other assets to move them out of reach of the hand which will surely come swooping down to show that efforts are being made to get the deficit under control.

I learned to speak fluent German, and worked internationally for over 12 years with the DoD.

I still write run-on sentences, but I am working on that as I now have the time to work on my grammar.

Finally what I remember the most about that time when I walked into the front door of my middle school and kept walking out the back door was that I was neither afraid, nor sad as I ended doing at 17 what most people only begin to do in their twenties these days.

I am now postulating the development of technologies which would end cyber attacks once and for all by virtue of bio protons.

  • 1 vote
#2.7 - Tue May 31, 2011 11:05 PM EDT

I have often wondered if I didn't have this very thing. Despite being a successful college graduate with a 3.8 - I am pathetic when it comes to simple arithmetic. I still count on my fingers or "count-up" and "count-down" for basic addition like 9+4. I struggled enormously in algebra and others - but have managed to scrape by so long as I was given enough time to use my very slow process of calculation.

Interestingly though, if I'm allowed a calculator I have absolutely no problem. I grasp mathematical concepts quite well and excelled in geometry, trig, statistics etc. But, face me down with basic math and only my brain and I pause. If it is a 'disorder' that I have, it is a very weak version, since I am largely capable of anything else number related. I can memorize long strings of numbers easily (including my credit card numbers, account numbers, stock numbers for work etc etc) - but ask me what 7+2-4 is... "Seven... eight... nine. Four, five, six, seven, eight, nine (counting on fingers)... Five."

I earned near perfect scores in the English and reading sections of my ACT. I was writing short stories at 10 yo and could smoke anyone at trivia. I have never written a paper that wasn't an A, and a few of mine are still used today by my professors for their lessons on the topic. So I really don't think 'being stupid' has much to do with it.

  • 3 votes
#2.8 - Wed Jun 1, 2011 8:00 AM EDT

For the few of us who know how hard we tried and who still suffer with the same plaguing issues in our advanced years, it is encouraging to know that there might be a very good reason we struggled in that one aspect of our education. I'm still haunted by those days and have a recurring nightmare that I didn't graduate high school. THAT should tell ANYONE how utterly frustrated I was and how VERY hard I tried and worked and studied and yet. . .still failed miserably to grap basic math.

    #2.9 - Wed Jun 1, 2011 6:09 PM EDT
    Reply

    I am not good at math! No matter how hard I tried I could not understand many mathematical concepts. I am not a stupid person and not all my math teachers were bad. If you have never had terror, anxiety or fear associated with math, you may not understand, but it is real and it has held me back in many life pursuits. Knowing the disorder has an official name, does not change a thing, but it is nice to know that there is a disconnect in my brain when it comes to math and that I was not lazy or stupid.

    • 11 votes
    Reply#3 - Tue May 31, 2011 11:36 AM EDT

    I was always the kid who ate pencils or just tore up my math assignments or tests due to anxiety.I had a 4th grade teacher suggest to my mother that I was slightly retarded due to my poor math skills.All through school I was an academic rockstar at everything but math and to this day I have managed to work in fields where I am not required to do ANY math for fear of "looking stupid" to my peers.If I have plenty of time,sure, I can figure out a math problem...but it requires me to have a calculator or pencil(s) and paper.I look forward to reading more about this disorder to possibly better myself in this aspect of my life.

    • 2 votes
    #3.1 - Tue May 31, 2011 3:22 PM EDT

    I'm with you on this. It isn't an excuse, I have known for a long time that I have had dyscalculia, I simply didn't know what to call it... in fact I always referred to it as "math dyslexia". I simply couldn't learn simple math no matter how hard I studied or tried. I failed just about every math class I ever took and aced just about every language/literature class. My SAT scores were close to perfect for verbal (790) and dismal for math (230). At this point in my life I am long out of school, and I have a job that is incredibly analytical and I excel at problem solving, but if you place a simple multiplication problem in front of me I resist the urge to run out of the room. I have been frustrated by it and it makes me quite angry that I can't handle simple tasks quickly (like making change)... I get there eventually, but I feel dumb in the process because I can do so many other things so quickly with such little thought.

    I am glad that this has been identified, and I hope it can lead to new techniques to assist kids with this problem before they end up going through life being terrified of math like me.

    • 5 votes
    #3.2 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:04 PM EDT
    Reply

    Oh my. I have had a disease for 69 years and didn't realize it.

    • 6 votes
    Reply#4 - Tue May 31, 2011 12:03 PM EDT

    Disorder, not a disease.

    • 5 votes
    #4.1 - Tue May 31, 2011 12:57 PM EDT
    Reply

    I am 62 years old and a renowned former Special Ed. teacher. I am dyscalculic and so is my daughter. We both have double masters and mathematics are a constant struggle. We both can learn but it is in a much different and very laborius way that we have to do it. The problem with labels is that it gives some affected as well as their teachers to not learn how that affected person needs to learn. (not bragging just trying to establish my valididty).

    This is a complicated syndrome, just like dyslexia, but can be dealt with.

    • 14 votes
    Reply#5 - Tue May 31, 2011 12:06 PM EDT

    But what kind of help can you give a child who has this disorder. Maybe some tools they can use to help as they advance in school.

      #5.1 - Fri Jun 3, 2011 9:25 AM EDT

      My son has all the problems with math and time described above; because of this he suffers low self esteem and believes he is "stupid." This has snowballed, and affects his other classes as well. Now he is not allowed to graduate because of math; the school system has been of no help. The systems' only concern is that the students present well/pass PSSA tests. Can someone please suggest where we might find help or talk to others sharing this problem??

        #5.2 - Fri Jun 3, 2011 1:03 PM EDT
        Reply

        I have to ask what I have then. Because half of this applies to me. I'm actually very good at math when given the time to really focus on it and do it. My real problem is actually transposing numbers. I failed a lot of math classes because you could see in my work I'd get the right answers, but I'd write 317 or 137 in the answer box instead of 173. I count on my fingers constantly and if I have to count something I have to physically point at it to count.

        However judging distance and time are easy for me, but I can't usually remember a series of numbers greater than unless I write it down for a few weeks.

        Its honestly the main thing stopping me from going for the degree I really want. The equations and such aren't the problem, it's the numbers themselves. So what is dyslexia with numbers where the numbers actually do move? I don't have a problem with words so it's not dyslexia itself. And it isn't just me, I've met a lot of people who have this and many more who don't.

        • 1 vote
        Reply#6 - Tue May 31, 2011 12:47 PM EDT

        I find I have similar issues to yours. I don't feel it is a different disorder, but possibly a subset of the same disorder. I am simply speculating here, but I assume our issues are related to dyscalculia.

        I am an IT consultant, and not to toot my own horn, a very good one with many years of experience. I have always wanted to go to Cal Tech or MIT to further my knowledge and enhance my career, but don't even dream of applying due to the fact I can't even handle simple arithmetic. However I could build a complex multi-country, multi-node, fully redundant and secure Wide Area Network in my sleep. Frustrating.

        • 4 votes
        #6.1 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:13 PM EDT

        Zeke - Transposing numbers same as transposing letters, and moving numbers or letters that appear to visually move on the page, are the same, and all can be improved to stop the movement or transposition of numbers/letters on the page with Irlen Filters on top of paper/page one is reading/changing colors of paper/ink/computer screeen colors, depending on what stops the movement/transposition of numbers/letter for you (everyone is different). Some examples of improvement can be found in the book, Reading By The Colors By Helen Irlen (pub. 1991) on color page samples (P. 147-154) showing how different colors can make it easier or harder, depending on how you see, and there's also samples of moving letters on pages to show different ways people see (numbers move the same as words - see P. 120 - Math in book). Since I had such strong reading skills I didn't initially believe in this, until I got tested over 20 years ago at Irlen. They showed me the improvement (and I saw that I wasn't stupid, as now I could see the problem and how Irlen made a difference just from putting color overlay on top of page I was reading/changing ink color I write with/paper color I write on/computer monitor screen color, etc.). There's also a website (Goggle Irlen) with more information. Lots of people over the years (since it was mentioned on 60 Minutes in 1988) have found this information useful and stopped blaming themselves because they couldn't see. Remember that's why we can change the colors of our computer monitor screens (and fonts style/type size) to enable us to read easily to avoid eye strain. Hope this data helps you out.

        • 1 vote
        #6.2 - Tue May 31, 2011 6:38 PM EDT

        I am guessing that you do have a learning difference that would be associated with dyscalculia. As in any learning disability there is a side spectrum of challenges. I can do all basic operations and algebraic expressions if handed to me. I do the same as you , i.e. reverse numbers, etc. Through lots of practice and a lengthy process of retraining, I can, most of the time , self correct.

          #6.3 - Tue May 31, 2011 10:04 PM EDT
          Reply
          Heck No!Deleted

          I believe that people label such things as a "disorder" just to make up for talent/skills/knowledge that they don't posses and will never do (even with great perseverance). Just accept the fact that you're slow when it comes to math, then you might see that you're excellent on something else (history, science, etc.) NO need for a label. I can't shoot or play ball like MJ no matter how much practice I do. But that doesn't mean I should be label as LeBron James.

            Reply#8 - Tue May 31, 2011 1:18 PM EDT

            My job involves complex analytical problem solving of a very technical nature that must be accurate and fast to be considered good at it... I have been doing it for 18 years and am highly sought after... It takes me twice as long as anyone else to make change for a dollar or solve a simple multiplication problem. I do believe that I suffer from this issue. How else could you explain the disparity of being able to excel at practical analytic problem solving, but unable to multiply 9x4 in my head?

            I am not going to use it as an excuse, however I am glad it has been identified so that maybe other will benefit from a new way of teaching so that they will not have, what I consider, the same handicap that I do.

            • 3 votes
            #8.1 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:21 PM EDT

            36

              #8.2 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:31 PM EDT

              My savior.

                #8.3 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:53 PM EDT

                I can't shoot or play ball like MJ no matter how much practice I do.

                Obvious case of Dysbasketballia. I know, I have it too. Imagine my shame. I'm six foot three and can't do a lay up to save my life. Free throws? Fugeddaboutit.

                In all seriousness though, and I don't want to sound patronizing here, because you've clearly become extremely successful with your career in the computer programming world, but there are software programs available which help folks practice and drill on the basic multiplication facts. The fact that 9 times 4 equals 36 is just something that you've got to memorize. Again let me repeat, I'm not trying to be patronizing here or tell you something that you haven't already been told 500 times over your entire life. But once you memorize it, as well as all of the other math facts up to 10 times 10, and a few mental math methods (which I'll explain in a moment), EVERYTHING else becomes easier.

                I could be wrong, but I would bet that you had some difficulty memorizing the basic math facts, even beginning with adding and subtracting, and that's what has hindered you.

                Here's an example: some folks might have difficulty subtracting 19 from 54 in their heads. Some might imagine picturing the numbers... stack them up, borrow from the five (mentally), carry the one... then it's fourteen minus nine is... uhh... and here's where it falls apart. So instead, don't subtract 19... subtract 20, then add one. 54 minus 20 is 34, plus one is 35. Or, as another alternative, if you want to stick with the nineteen, break it up into ten and nine. 54 minus ten is 44, then to subtract the nine first subtract 4 to get to forty, then five more takes you to 35.

                Here's one for multiplying: to do 14 times 5... think of the 14 as ten and four. Ten times five is fifty, four times five is twenty, the fifty plus the twenty is seventy.

                Once again, I do not say these things to be patronizing and if all this seems insulting, I apologize. I just find that most people have not been taught this way of thinking about numbers. They are simply instructed in "the standard algorithm" and if they don't get it, well, sorry kids, we have to move on.

                This is a national tragedy and ought to be addressed.

                  #8.4 - Tue May 31, 2011 7:10 PM EDT

                  LOL!, OMG!, LMAO!!

                  De donde es?

                    #8.5 - Wed Jun 1, 2011 1:25 AM EDT
                    Reply

                    Interesting article. Naming a "disorder" does give it credence, but I'd like to give my quick thoughts on the subject.

                    I am pretty excellent at math. I'm actually excellent in math, reading, science, writing and communication.

                    But, I really really suck at art. I can't draw a straight line with a ruler. I can't take an object in my mind and set it to paper. I can't draw, paint, or model clay. I am absolutely hopeless with art. When asked to draw a horse, cat, man, ... whatever ... I resort to stick figures for the most part.

                    Since art isn't really "academic" like reading, writing, and arithmetic, those who can't "draw" are simply not as artistic as those who can.

                    We can probably create a disorder for just about everything people are not good at. And those disorders would likely reflect a real condition within the human brain that creates a deficiency.

                    But, for every disorder, there is an opposite genius side. Mathematical savants, musical prodigies, literary geniuses. That's what makes the human race amazing! I gladly accept my inability to draw a circle so that I can listen to Mozart on my ipod while admiring the Mona Lisa in a museum!

                      Reply#9 - Tue May 31, 2011 1:38 PM EDT

                      Not exactly apples to apples. A better example would be my situation. I have the ability to solve very complex technical problems in my mind, usually faster and more accurately than most others in my own profession (Information Technology), however, I am unable to solve a simple problem like 9x4 in my head without deep thought, guessing, counting on my fingers, and being completely unsure of my answer when I arrive at it.

                      So it shows that the analytical (mathematical) portion of my mind is not only functional, but even possibly exceptional compared to others who preform the same function as I. I guess what I am saying is that I never truly understood why I could do these things so well, but attempting to solve a much simpler analytical problem was close to impossible... I would simply freeze because I didn't know how to arrive at the answer. How would you explain that, I know that I can't explain it simply as being bad at math.

                      I simply see this as a way of identifying a problem... step one in solving that problem. I hope it helps teachers find new ways to teach to those affected by this issue.

                      • 2 votes
                      #9.1 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:50 PM EDT

                      I can't draw a straight line with a ruler.

                      Certainly you jest.

                        #9.2 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:55 PM EDT

                        John, of course the ruler comment is a joke. A humbly self depricating one at that.

                        Concerned, I share the same difficulties in artistic expression and was overjoyed to discover graphic design programs like Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop.

                          #9.3 - Tue May 31, 2011 7:14 PM EDT
                          Reply

                          Sorry folks. I keep reading how "real" this is and how "bad" it can be. Why one person even said "Google" it and read the results at "reputable sites". The medical industry has no compunction about creating and promoting (yes promoting) disorders. The fact that you simply cannot do math well while you can do most everything else well puts you in the same boat as those who can't do chemistry well or learn foreign languages, or aren't as tall. Is your brain different than other people's? Gosh I sure hope so, because no two brains are wired exactly the same. I can fly jet aircraft off of aircraft carriers in the Navy but I REALLY suck at fixing my own car. I can't even find the hood release on my latest car. Does that mean I have a "disorder" or just that I'm simply not wired to be an ASE Mechanic...who if put in the cockpit might turn to jello on the catapult...and does that mean he too has a disorder? NO! It means we're different, with different skills and abilities. PERIOD!

                            Reply#10 - Tue May 31, 2011 2:25 PM EDT

                            Do "random" and "unnecessary" quotations make you "feel better" about the "ablism" you're "spouting"?

                            • 13 votes
                            #10.1 - Tue May 31, 2011 2:42 PM EDT

                            rockxaction - Actually those were quotes and I quoted them because they were not my words, but....wait for it....quotes. Your use of the quotation marks combined with your comment however demonstrate that you have not grasped the concept of quoting someone.

                            Now if you disagree with what I said, how about trying to make an intelligent response on my points instead of showing us your lack of skills with the written word.

                              #10.2 - Tue May 31, 2011 3:01 PM EDT

                              I know several people diagnosed with discalculia, and it's ridiculous to claim it isn't a disorder. Adults typically don't have trouble telling time, or with basic addition. If you can't do calculus, that's fine; math may not be for you. But failing to be able to see that something greatly outnumbers something else? Or addition? That's a severe deficit that needs treating.

                              • 5 votes
                              #10.3 - Tue May 31, 2011 3:11 PM EDT

                              Now see, was that so hard?

                                #10.4 - Tue May 31, 2011 3:21 PM EDT

                                I have to agree with you, JJ. I've read everyone's stories about how the disorder has affected them, and it's really too bad. I've cried over math homework before. Actually, lots of times. I understood what the teacher said in class, took notes, then went home with my homework and it was like hieroglyphics. I honestly think I passed precalculus because my teacher felt bad for me (not that I condone that). But if I knew about this "disorder" in high school, I doubt I would have tried half as hard. Maybe it's a legitimate disorder, but even if it is, it's an excuse to not try as hard. In my opinion, it's probably less of a disorder and more a learning style. For example, I'm a visual learner, some are auditory learners, some are hands-on learners. I agree that teachers need to try different methods of teaching to make sure all students can understand the concepts. However, labeling every person's weakness as a disorder or disease just makes people blame that and become lazy.

                                By the way, I don't mean to offend anyone. These are just my thoughts on the subject and I am not an expert. I agree with all the people who say that teachers need to recognize this in students and teach accordingly. I disagree that it should be treated as a disorder. As JJ said, everyone has different strengths and weaknesses, and different brains.

                                  #10.5 - Tue May 31, 2011 5:18 PM EDT

                                  JJ Murray has a learning disability when it comes to sarcasm, apparently. Don't worry, rockxaction; I laughed. I'm sure everyone else did too. Everyone but JJ Murray, who is surely feigning his inability to comprehend irony in language usage.

                                  I was going to liberally sprinkle erroneous quotes throughout this reply too, but didn't want to give him more ammunition for his factitious disorder.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #10.6 - Tue May 31, 2011 5:36 PM EDT

                                  Actually, I'm pretty sure JJ understood what Rockx was trying to do. However, as JJ pointed out, Rockx misinterpretted his actual quotes as "random" and "unnecessary" (quoted from Rockxaction's above post) and decided to make fun of that instead of actually making a legitimate contribution to the dialogue, much like you, Nicolasa.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #10.7 - Tue May 31, 2011 5:42 PM EDT

                                  To put quotation marks around a single word: "real" or "bad", is not an example of actually quoting someone, it's just using punctuation to accentuate a particular word or two. Rockx is justified in his or her response, sarcastic as it was.

                                  That said, "factitious"?? Is that serious Nic, or a punny sort of witticism?

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #10.8 - Tue May 31, 2011 7:22 PM EDT
                                  Reply

                                  Serious question here: Would dyscalculia be a subgrouping of innumerates, or would an innumerate be a subgroup of dyscalculia, or are they (someone who is a dyscalculate and someone who is an innumerate) two different things?

                                    Reply#11 - Tue May 31, 2011 3:07 PM EDT

                                    A learning disability is often defined in the school setting as a discrepancy between IQ and achievement AND an underlying deficit in one or more of the basic psychological processes. It is difficult to see this as a disability because the processes that underlie math acquisition, especially in the elementary and early middle school years, are memory, visual spatial processing, and to some degree, attention. If an individual has deficits in these processes, why wouldn't they also have difficulty in reading, per se? People need memory to remember sound segments while decoding and to remember many complex rules for reading. They need visual spatial ability to form letters correctly. There is no logical reason why a kid could form letters correctly, but not numbers--same part of the brain! I have to say, reading is usually seen as more interesting and more relevant than math, and therefore there is more motivation to learn how to read than to do math. Sadly, there is also a tendency for many children (girls especially!) to believe they are not good at math. Parents and even kids need to understand that if they have what it takes to learn in other subject areas, then they have what it takes to "do math." Maybe motivation, confidence, and effort should be focused on more so than the possibility of a disabling condition.

                                      Reply#12 - Tue May 31, 2011 3:21 PM EDT

                                      Actually, it's only partially overlapping parts of the brain.

                                      The first stage of reading (visual letter and word recognition) depends on the inferior temporal lobes, the second stages (phonological processing and meaning extraction) depend on superior temporal lobes and supramarginal gyrus, in parallel, and the final stage, articulation, on the inferior frontal gyrus.

                                      Math shares with reading the first stage of seeing the numbers, but then information goes to the inferior parietal lobule, the intraparietal sulcus, and then perhaps on to the inferior frontal gyrus (if the answer is to be read aloud), or to the motor cortex (for written answers). The key difference is the role of parietal cortex for extracting the meaning of the numbers, which is not critical for reading words (see my post #36, too).

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #12.1 - Wed Jun 1, 2011 1:23 AM EDT
                                      Reply

                                      Good gosh, where were these excuses when I was in school?

                                      Tony, dictionary.com defines dyscalculia as "severe difficulty in making simple mathematical calculations, due to cerebral disease or injury". Conversely, it defines innumerates as "unfamiliar with mathematical concepts and methods; unable to use mathematics".

                                      You know how some people generically refer to others as "morons" or "idiots"? Not joking here... few people know the difference. An "idiot" has a learning quotient of 25 or lower. A "moron" has a learning quotient between 50 and 69 (if I remember right). In other words, one has the capacity to learn but choses not to; the other doesn't even have the capacity.

                                      Sounds like the same thing here. One has "difficulty"; the other is "unable to use" mathematics.

                                      Hope that helps.

                                      • 2 votes
                                      Reply#13 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:00 PM EDT

                                      I have all of these symptoms, never thought (or will think) of it as a "disorder" though. I simply suck at math, and it always gave me anxiety in school. I scored high on all other aptitude tests besides simple math, but for some reason geometry and statistics never gave me too many problems. I always attributed it to the fact that those particular types of math involved more practical thinking and problem solving skills than algebra and calculus, which to this day I don't even bother with. Simple math is ridiculously hard for me...simply adding a tip to a check gives me a little panic attack. When I play a game that involves adding, like Yahtzee, I have to physically group the dice into sets of ten and add them from there, or else count on my fingers. Everyone pokes fun at me for it, but it truly is the one thing that always tripped me up. I cannot add or subtract in my head without using my hands, although I have a slightly easier time with multiplication, division, and fractions.

                                      Just a quirky thing I guess.

                                      • 4 votes
                                      Reply#14 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:01 PM EDT

                                      LOL I bet you "count spots" on your numbers to add them up too! :) (An old trick for those of us who never could "DO" arithmetic!)

                                      • 3 votes
                                      #14.1 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:26 PM EDT
                                      Reply

                                      Oh please, give me a break... just another made-up disorder to explain away the reason why our pathetic education system (and teachers) are simply failing to do their jobs. Seems like the only solution the education system can come up with to explain why so many reading, writing and math-illiterate kids are being produced in this country. Can't do something? Just put "dys" in front of the root Latin word and call it a day!

                                      • 2 votes
                                      Reply#15 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:27 PM EDT

                                      "Made-up disorder to explain away...our pathetic education system", right? You mean like autism? Yeah, you know autism, that "made-up" and "overdiagnosed" disorder that a South Korean study found in DOUBLE the percentage of South Korean students despite South Korea having one of the top 10 performing school systems in the world?

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #15.1 - Tue May 31, 2011 9:44 PM EDT

                                      Sean, it's not the education system that is pathetic, it's this trend towards labeling everybody as being disadvantaged in some way. Kids are learning that NOTHING is their fault or their responsibility. Consequently, most of them are all too ready to blame their failures on some external factor that is out of their personal control. Teachers can only do so much--it's up to the parents to motivate their kids to overcome whatever obstacles enter their lives.

                                      When I was growing up, there were very few special accommodations made for students' disabilities. Now, it seems that about one-fourth of high school students are identified as having some disability, and parents of relatively normal kids are trying to have their kids classified as requiring some form of special education. The difference is not in the kids themselves, it's in our willingness to excuse them from responsibility for their own success in life.

                                      Don't blame the teachers. It's the parents and the system that is forcing teachers to lower the bar.

                                        #15.2 - Tue May 31, 2011 9:53 PM EDT
                                        Reply

                                        From what my teacher friends tell me, most students in Volusia County must be afflicted with this "dyscalculia".

                                        • 1 vote
                                        Reply#16 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:29 PM EDT

                                        Don't know where Volusia County is, but what a funny comment! lol

                                          #16.1 - Tue May 31, 2011 6:51 PM EDT
                                          Reply

                                          Is Dyscalcula the vampire on Sesame Street? You know....One Ringy Dingy...Two Ringy Dingy.....Ha Ha Ha....Three Ringy Dingies!!!

                                            Reply#17 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:34 PM EDT

                                            I freely admit that I held the undisputed title of the laziest, most shiftless student in the late lamented Mrs. Crown's 9th grade math class, all those years ago. Anybody who fails bonehead Algebra TWICE just ain't tryin'. And my struggles in all things numeric weren't due to this Disorder of the Week - I just couldn't pick up the basics and simply stopped even trying to. Even an idiot soon learns that repeatedly beating your head against the wall hurts, and the sooner you stop doing it the sooner the hurt goes away.

                                              Reply#18 - Tue May 31, 2011 4:38 PM EDT
                                              mac@59Deleted
                                              Reply

                                              The right diagnosis is D-Y-S-E-D-U-C-A-T-I-O-N-I-A.

                                                Reply#19 - Tue May 31, 2011 5:04 PM EDT
                                                mac@59Deleted

                                                At least we now know why Obamanomics doesn't work!

                                                • 1 vote
                                                Reply#21 - Tue May 31, 2011 5:18 PM EDT

                                                All I can think of is my own personal experience with learning mathematics. It wasn't easy for me.

                                                I started out by taking a college level remedial arithmetic course which I had to work hard at. Since I wanted to obtain a degree in Engineering, I next had to master pre-calculus math. I struggled with this course and in the beginning I scored in the 40's and 50's. Concepts such as trigonometric identities were extremely foreign to me. I worked and studied very laboriously and by the end of the course, I had improved to making grades in the 80's and a few 90's. I finished the course with a B.

                                                From my poor start, I went on to complete Calculus I, II, II and IV and Differential Equations. I completed each of these courses with a grade of B or higher. I had trouble at the outset with each and every course and always had to work very hard to grasp the concepts being taught. I always suffered anxiety and fear at the start of each new course. I believed I was unqualified to even be in the class. But I made it only because of hard work.

                                                Now this new concept of dyscalculia comes along and some here view it as just another way to forgive those that are "intelligence-challenged" and are unwilling to exert the effort necessary to master the math being taught. But some of the comments made in the story lead credence to the concept of dyscalculia. Even with the difficulties I had in mastering the Calculus, I never once was unable to distinguish which was the greater number, 8 or 5, nor did I ever consider the height of a wall to be 200 feet.

                                                If there are people like that, then they must indeed have some sort of unusual problem that requires special attention and coaching.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                Reply#22 - Tue May 31, 2011 6:40 PM EDT

                                                The correct term is 'ilnumeracy'

                                                  Reply#23 - Tue May 31, 2011 8:09 PM EDT

                                                  You mean innumeracy. And that's different from dyscalculia, just as illiteracy is different from dyslexia. In both cases the former (il- & in-) is simply due to a lack of knowledge and learning which is a fairly simple thing to remedy with time, motivation and instruction. However, the latter situations, the dys-functional cases, cannot be remedied no matter how much instruction is provided. There is a built in hard wired organic brain processing problem which cannot simply be fixed with more lessons and practice.

                                                    #23.1 - Wed Jun 1, 2011 5:51 PM EDT
                                                    Reply

                                                    I am plagued with dyslexia, insomnia, and agnosticism,,,, I often lie awake at night and wonder if there is a dog,,,

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    Reply#24 - Tue May 31, 2011 8:20 PM EDT

                                                    Hey! I still use my fingers to add, sometimes, but I'm in Calculus, so I would assume that that puts me out of the dyscalculia bracket.

                                                      Reply#25 - Tue May 31, 2011 8:35 PM EDT

                                                      My daughter is in her final semester at UC Berkeley. She has been challenged, educationally by ADD & Dyscaculia. She received no 'ADA accomadations' for her math learning disability because no one knew what would be appropriate. The school had never encountered a dyscalic student majoring in math! No exceptions were made for her learning disability, she had to meet every requirement. Why did she insist on doing it? ...and I quote "because it wasn't easy".

                                                      • 3 votes
                                                      Reply#26 - Tue May 31, 2011 8:40 PM EDT

                                                      dlynn, just for clarification, what you are saying (I think) is that you are proud of your daughter for majoring in math despite her math learning disability, NOT that you think she should have received accommodations in college. Is that right? If so, then I agree wholeheartedly.

                                                      I can see a need for accommodations in high school, because everybody is required to take high school, but I see very little need for accommodations in college for a learning disability. A physical handicap such as blindness or deafness is different--just look at what Stephen Hawkings has accomplished.

                                                        #26.1 - Tue May 31, 2011 10:04 PM EDT

                                                        WOW!!! All the comments about the difficulties of having dyslexia, dysgraphia and discalculia ring so, so true. I struggle with all 3 my whole live thinking I was just bad at grammar, all math HAD to be on paper (I love calculator) and so much more. My initial diagnosis at 18 since I still could not spell or write without spell check gave a comfort. The last formal diagnosis at 26 gave even more, some ADD. I have to thank my parents for all their hard work in getting me to learn a 2nd language (true all my tiers) and getting my Bachelors and Post-Bachelors Certificate. While the titles of a college education are great only those with these conditions and their families can truly understand the cost paid for every test, report, ect. The cost could be studying for one weak to get a C when the other kid studied for 4 hours and got an A. Like some have said the tough of graduate school may be their, but tanking a GRE or any other qualifying test can en essence stop us in our track.

                                                        Life with any disorder is hard, with any combination more so, but if the will and good support is there no matter how far in school you get you can succeed in something.

                                                          #26.2 - Tue May 31, 2011 11:07 PM EDT

                                                          I've enrolled in math 4 times with 4 different teachers in college and still can't do math. I don't want to be "labled" with this, but if there is a sulution or better yet a cure I would love to give it a try before I enroll in a math class again failing makes me feel so stupid.

                                                            #26.3 - Fri Jun 3, 2011 9:49 AM EDT
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                                                            I do believe in disabilities. I also believe in some accommodations.

                                                            My concern is: What happens to these accommodations when you enter the work force.

                                                            If they are continued, GREAT. But if not, then we have a problem. Especially if you paid to attend college. The purpose of college is to prepare you to have a job, at a certain level. Unless employers are also willing to accommodate you, colleges have taken your money and have not prepared you to enter the workforce.

                                                            Most degree-requiring jobs require some level of mathematical analysis (budgets, statistical analysis, interpretation of data, etc.) They also require some level of written communication (another common disability) in the form of reports. So unless your future job is offering the same level of accommodations that colleges, allow... you have NOT been prepared for future employement - which is the reason you went to college. You may not get a return on your investment (unless your intent was to donate $50K+ to the university of your choice.) This, my friends, is a scandal of epic proportions, considering how much college costs these days. But in the end, the college will have your money. You, however, will have a $300 per month student loan debt, and a job you could have gotten without the student loan debt.

                                                            In the past, I hired recent college grads. I'm not certain how far my former company would have gone with accommodations; but quite honestly, I don't think they would have done anything without an ADA lawsuit. Again, I am pro-accommodations; if the company provided them, I would have rolled with it. But I will say, unequivocally, that the moment that the accommodations require that I do the job I hired you to do, our relationship is doomed.

                                                            As a manager, we have to fight for every additional staff person we hire (especially during these hard economic times.) We hire in an effort to decrease our workload, not increase it. I need people to be able to do the job for which they are hired. I have certain assumptions when you come to me with a college degree (a requirement for my, then, second-in-command) and you have to be able to do the tasks of the job.

                                                            Again, I don't have a problem with accommodations. If my former company had provided them, then I would have certainly worked with them. But I have a feeling my former company would have said, "I made a bad hire" and I would have been expected to do the work until we "mutually" parted ways (they were far more willing to assist me in letting someone go than to assist me helping them.) I know it's not right, but it's probably true.

                                                            In the past, I have asked ADA representatives at colleges, "What happens to these students after this? Where do they work?" It's not a subject they really want to discuss.

                                                            I cannot stress enough, I believe in both disabilities and accommodations. But I wonder how the system works after education. I know that there are some opportunities with certain companies that are more helpful, but how many companies are actually like that? I sincerely hope that these students are getting a return on their investment. If not, considering the cost of college, it's a damn shame.

                                                              Reply#27 - Tue May 31, 2011 9:46 PM EDT

                                                              I can agree with you on the physically disabled having equal access and navigation at a job site, but the accomodations end of it I'm not sure about.

                                                              If what you say is truely what you believe, then you would have colleges and universities be liable for the job performance results and evaluations every student with a new job gets. I think any student or prospective employee could claim such a rare or little known condition that should get them excused from the consequences of a poor or sub-standard job performance.

                                                              First, even with such difficulty, they apparently managed to make it all the way through college, did they not? If you are smart and determined to graduate and manage to do so, then additional accomodations shouldn't be necessary.

                                                              Common sense should play a role here as well, I mean, if you suffer this condition, don't apply for a job at an accounting firm and then claim your school didn't prepare you for this. I'm not totally convinced this affliction really stops a person from reaching their goals. It may be an impediment, but it seems more a conveinent excuse putting the blame on the employer and the liability on the schools.

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              #27.1 - Fri Jun 3, 2011 11:53 AM EDT
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